Herrman, Bernice_1976, Oral History, September 29, 1976

Bernice Herrman – Franchon Title This is Wednesday, September 29, 1976 and I am Franchon Title, a member of the Jewish Historical Society of Hartford, Connecticut. I am interviewing Mrs. Jule Herrmann of West Hartford, Connecticut, an old friend of mine. Sandra Epstein is recording the conversation. This interview will be a part of the archives of the Jewish Historical Society to be used for research and historical data. FT: Bernice, I’ve known you so long when your name was Lyman and you were so thoughtful to give our Society this unique gift, your mother’s wedding gown. How did you happen to think of giving it to us? BH: Well, to be honest with you I first called the Hartford Historical Society not knowing about the Jewish Historical Society, and they said they had so many of those things they weren’t in the least bit interested. Then I heard about the Jewish Historical Society and I thought it would be very nice if they were interested. I would be happy. I didn’t want to throw it away. FT: Oh, of course. BH: I wanted it kept somehow. FT: I am going to ask you some questions about the dress, but first I would like to get a little background about you. Now, Bernice, were you born in Hartford? BH: Oh, yes. My father and mother were both born in Hartford. FT: Where were you born? BH: On Amalon Street in Hartford. That’s in the South End of Hartford. FT: Ya. And it was a very nice section of town? BH: All my aunts and uncles, we all lived in that area. FT: Well, was it large Jewish section? BH: No, it was mostly Irish. A lot of Irish neighbors. In amongst them, now my grandfather Lyman lived on Wethersfield Avenue. He lived on Soldiers Place. We all lived in that. My other grandfather lived on Congress Street. FT: Do you think it was because the temple was located there? BH: Possibly. Because we worked to which was on Charter Oak Place at that time and we all belonged, my grandfather was one of the first members I think. FT: I think he was too. But now were Jewish people in that section of the city? BH: There were quite a few. FT: Ya. Do you think there were any in the north part at that time? BH: Yes, there were. FT: In the North End there were some. BH: Some of my friends lived there. FT: But very few left at that period, right? BH: Right. FT: I know that was a large group. What kind of a house did you live in? BH: We lived in a two family house that my father owned and my aunt and uncle the Palhymers lived upstairs. FT: So you were all brought up like one family? What kind of neighbors did you have, you mentioned the Irish people? BH: On both sides, across the street and all our immediate neighbors were Irish. They were all Irish Catholic people. Going to school I was friendly with, you know all the children my age, and we all were, but we got along very well together. FT: What school did you go to then? BH: It was the Dawes School when I first went to it and it changed to _______ and they just tore it down. FT: Where was that located? BH: On Hudson and Wadsley Street. FT: You had a long way to walk. You had to walk four times a day. You had no lunch period then. You went home for lunch. BH: We didn’t take a lunch unless it was a very, very bad day. Then my mother or father would bring a lunch to school, but there were no lunchrooms or anything. FT: Nothing? BH: Oh no. FT: And how big a school was it? BH: Well it was fairly big, nine grades. FT: Nine grades. Ya. And then you went on to Hartford High and ________ back and forth there. BH: And Hartford High then was on Broad Street, Between Broad and Hopkins, and we walked there unless the weather was very, very bad. FT: Nobody thought anything of walking in those days. VH: We went to temple on Saturday. So we walked there too. FT: Do you remember any of your teachers at Chauncy at the _______ School, or VH: I remember my ninth grade teacher, she was a Miss Jamison and I don’t remember any of the others too well. It was a very long time ago. FT: And how about HPHS, you graduated there? VH: Yes. FT: What year was that? VH: In 1918 I graduated. FT: Ya. And then did you go on to school? VH: No, I went to LaSalle. It was a two-year course and I graduated from there in 1920. FT: LaSalle Seminary? VH: Yes. Well it was the Lasalle Junior College now but it was. FT: They used to call them finishing schools at that time. So you were finished, weren’t you? BH: Now my youngest granddaughter went there. FT: Oh, she did? BH: And she took a three-year nursing course. And she has been connected with a Boston hospital she got her RN. FT: Well now let’s go back to your home on Analon Street, did you live there all your life while you were single? BH: No, when I was, my first year at LaSalle, we moved here. FT: And this is 24 Beverly Road, West Hartford. So you are a West Hartford resident since 1919. BH: And my parents lived here until they died and after my father passed away I came to stay with my mother, Sylvia. FT: That’s great. I hope you are here for many years. Well, I what was it like in those days when you lived on Amalon Street? I mean what did people do for amusement there was no TV and _____ on radio and all those things. What did they do to have a good time? BH: Well, just got together really. I don’t remember doing FT: Parties mostly? BH: Well, yes, but not really parties just getting together with friends and neighbors and we didn’t have any regular ____. And as kids we had clubs. I belonged to a club with some of the girls from Sunday school. FT: Like me? Things were much simpler. BH: Not simpler, they were, we used go to We went once in a while, not very often. When I got a little older FT: And did you have an ____________ BH: When I was little, but when I got bigger I think it was after we moved here, my grandfather Lyman had one of the first automobiles, he had a Sill___ FT: So you went for a ride with him probably on a Sunday afternoon? So life was comparatively quiet and easy and you BH: We had a very ________ with my father’s mother, very easy to get along with and my father gave us everything that we needed and wanted. FT: And how about the rest of your family. How many brothers and sisters did you have? BH: I had one brother and one sister. We had another sister who died when she was five years old. She was the baby of the family, Hannah. And she had ________ and she was five years old when she died and at the time I think I was about thirteen. FT: And people died from those diseases in those days? BH: We didn’t have any serums or anything to combat those, she really was FT: She was a beautiful little girl. BH: My sister Sylvia _____________________ FT: And Sylvia married BH: Richard McCord whose family lived on Congress Street and lived down the South End also. _____________ Ira married a Gilman and I guess it was comparatively newcomers to Hartford. We didn’t know when we were little but the McCords were old Hartford FT: An old Hartford Jewish family. Well about now, how did you feel very Jewish at the time when you were young, I mean you were conscious of it? BH: Well, I mean we observed all the holidays and we went to Sunday school every Sunday and to services almost every Saturday morning but my family were not what you would call religious in that sense. We all kinds of things to eat in the house regardless of whether they were FT: No dietary BH: But we used to all the holidays and my grandfather Stern was quite religious. FT: Tell us a little bit about the Beth Israel Sunday School in those days? BH: Well, my uncle who lived in our house was the head, remember him, he was the head of the Sunday school. He was superintendent, I guess it was what they called it. FT: An absolutely voluntary job. BH: Yes, oh yes. But we wanted Sundays and we had fun. FT: Remember any of your teachers? I wonder if any are alive as well. BH: I can remember some people who were in my class. FT: Like who? BH: Maxine Hartstone. FT: Who no longer lives in Hartford. BH: And Florence Goldberg and Bea Winnick who was, and my cousin Marla Stern, she was in my class and Warren ________ that’s the older FT: He’s gone. BH: Yes. FT: So you saw the pictures of our temple BH: I had that ______ FT: There were Sunday school parties BH: Oh yes. There were parties in Sunday school and we were all __________. I didn’t remember because his grandson was and I talked to him on the phone and I couldn’t remember whether I was or not. FT: Well that was a little unusual and there weren’t too many bar mitzvahs. BH: But he was. I asked him particularly and then we were all confirmed too. FT: Ya. BH: the rabbi at that time. FT: Who was? BH: Edison FT: When you were confirmed. BH: I’m sure it was. FT: Ya. Oh yes. BH: He died recently. In Philadelphia. When I got married I asked FT: Oh, he was. BH: He married me too. FT: Well now, after you got through LaSalle did you work, did you do anything? BH: Well I worked in my father’s office, but not for very long because I got married. FT: What year were you married? BH: ’23. In 1923. FT: Well now you say your father’s office BH: Plumbers and heating contractors which my grandfather originated. FT: And that was ______________ BH: Originally before I was born on State Street and then they moved to Central Row in Hartford. And my grandfather ______ in 1876 which is just 100 years ago. Although it is no longer _______. And then my father and my uncle ____ took over the ____ and they moved to Central Row and they ran it. Originally it started as heating and I think tinsmith because my grandfather used to love to poke around ____ FT: Oh, yes I have a lot of stuff that he made _______ BH: And then when they specialized in plumbing and heating contracts and then my brother went into the business until he retired and sold it. FT: When your grandfather, where does he come from? BH: ____ FT: And right to Hartford? BH: I think so. As far as I know. FT: And he knew this trade when he came here? BH: I don’t think he was married when he came. FT: He wasn’t, he was married in this country? BH: Yes, and my parents were both born right here in Hartford. FT: I see. BH: My other grandparents came from Germany. FT: Your grampa Stern came from – your name was Stern? Your mother’s name was Stern. What did grampa Stern do? BH: Well when I knew him of course he was quite old. I don’t think he did anything. He was connected with the dry goods company in Hartford, Sterns and Handelbaum. FT: A dry goods store? BH: A dry goods store and I think some relative of him who had been there before him originated the store and I think that’s why he came here. FT: Oh I see. BH: And he wasn’t married at the time. He had been in the army, the Civil War in Kansas and then he came here. FT: Oh I see. I didn’t know that. Grandma Lyon, where was she born, in Hartford? BH: No, I think all four grandparents were born in Germany. FT: They were all born in Germany. What brought her over here? Do you know? BH: I don’t know because both grandfathers I knew very well but both grandmothers died when I was little. FT: Oh I see. BH: And I never knew them very well. FT: There is a story that grandpa, your grandpa Lyon used to give a stove to every newcomer who came and established a home in Hartford. Do you know that story? BH: No, I never heard that story. FT: You never heard it, well I heard it. That your grandfather Lyon ________ an apartment such as it was for a newcomer and your grandpa Lyon would give a new stove to every newcomer. But those were coal stoves. BH: Funny, I never heard that. FT: You never heard that. I am glad I told you something, it’s your interview but I am telling you stories. Now was grandpa Stern a religious man? BH: Yes. Grandpa Lyon wasn’t. But grandpa Stern was more religious although not, I wouldn’t say that they were FT: They weren’t Orthodox. BH: They weren’t Orthodox but they he always observed the holidays and always went to services and FT: Well now ere both of them or either of them influential in studying in temple? BH: I think it was started before my grandpa Stern got here. I think one of his relatives who was influential _________ I think because it was started by FT: Ya. BH: I think it was a cousin or uncle. I haven’t been able to find out and I don’t know where I would. FT: Now in the Lyon’s family was it a large family did your grandpa Lyon have a lot of children? BH: No. They were all ______. My father was the oldest and there was ____ and then Aunt Sophie who married Moses _______. It was just the three of them. FT: Three of them. And the other side of the family the Sterns? BH: There were four girls and two boys. There were six of them. FT: Well now who were the girls? What was the family connection? BH: The oldest one was Rose who married Kregman. FT: Joseph Kregman? BH: Yes. My mother was the second, her name was Minnie and ____ who married Tallheimer and then Del, she was the youngest girl and then there were two boys. FT: She married BH: ______ FT: ______ ya. BH: Then there were two boys, Samuel and Moses. Moses worked all his life at different ____ FT: linens BH: linens and sheets and all that. I think he was FT: In the same line? And they were both married and had families. BH: Yes, and they all settled in Hartford, every one of them. FT: Every one. BH: And all my father’s family, all of us, we all stayed here and we were all FT: Well now, none of them are alive today. None of your relatives BH: They would be very, very old if they were. They are all gone. As a matter of fact I think that Aunt Del I think she was the last FT: And Sarah Klein lived to an old age. BH: She died a couple of years ago. FT: Ya. And they all had children. BH: And they all had children. FT: Ya. So now your mother was going ____ the wedding dress. The wedding dress when was she married? BH: She was married in 1899. FT: 1899, just before the turn of the Century. Well now who married her? Rabbi Elkin? He must have. He was the rabbi here from 1887 to 1912. BH: Well it must have been him them because they were married FT: Have you any idea where they were married? BH: No, I haven’t any idea where they were married. I only know that they were married in ’99. FT: 1899. Summer, winter, BH: The last day of January. FT: Oh. BH: They were married. And the year from the following April I was born. FT: Oh I see. BH: But they were married on on the 30th of January. FT: Well now what do you know about the date, about the dress was it something that was made for your mother? BH: I think in those days they were made. FT: Was it hand made or did you have the sheem, was it made by the sheem? BH: I think most of it was hand made. FT: It was. BH: I think so because I don’t think FT: Do you have any pictures of your mother in her dress? BH: No, I have no pictures of her. I’ve got a lovely picture of them. Four sisters and I lent it to my grandson to photograph for me didn’t get it back yet. The four girls before they were married prettiest FT: But no picture of the wedding dress? BH: Not at all. FT: That’s too bad. BH: It is too bad. I would like to have had it. FT: And old was your mother when she was married? BH: I don’t remember. She and father were around thirty when they got married. FT: When they got married. Well now, when I remember your mother she was rather a large woman. Was she always a big woman? BH: No. Because the wedding dress is so small that none of my granddaughters could even get into it and they wear what a size 7 or something. FT: She was slim? Was she tall? BH: No. Not tall at all. I am much taller than she was. FT: What about your father? BH: My father wasn’t tall either, but you know, average height I would say. FT: And your father was always full of fun. BH: He had the most marvelous sense of humor of anybody I think I have ever known. It was always good-natured and we always had fun because he was always. My mother had a wonderful sense of humor. FT: Your mother too? BH: She had a marvelous disposition. And I hope I inherited some of it. I think my son is very much like my father. FT: Well now, did your mother work before she was BH: My mother was a teacher. We are talking about the first graduates of the New Britain Normal School. She graduated from there in 1889, I think it was. I wrote it down. FT: So she taught for about 10 years. BH: Ya, 1889. She graduated from New Britain Normal. I think and she taught in FT: Did your mother ever tell you about the teaching and what it was like in those days? BH: She taught. She first taught in Cromwell. FT: Did she live there? BH: Yes. What she had to go. She couldn’t commute. There was no way of commuting so she used to live with a family during the week and come home weekends. And she taught in Cromwell for the first few years then in addition she taught in the Northbrook School when there was that little, I think little tiny building that was just town down a short time ago. Remember that little. FT: Yes. BH: That was where she taught. I remember as a child every time I went by there she used to say that’s where I taught school. FT: What grade did she teach? BH: I don’t know. FT: You don’t know what grade she taught. BH: No. But she taught quite FT: Well did all the girls, did any of the other girls teach? BH: No. She was the only teacher. I don’t know what the others did, but mother was the only teacher. FT: How far did your father go in school? BH: I don’t think he went very far. FT: You don’t? BH: No. I don’t think he went beyond grammar school but that’s not for published FT: Ya. BH: He didn’t go very far. FT: And yet he was a very successful main. BH: They did very well. They were very successful. And I also FT: And your father’s name was BH: Felix FT: Felix Lyon BH: And Uncle Ben’s name was Bernard. FT: And everybody knew Felix Lyon. BH: And my father and Uncle Ben were quite active in the synagogue. FT: Oh, surely tell us about it. BH: Uncle Ben was Health Commissioner in Hartford from 1904 to 1920 and he was one of the founders of the Goodwill Club for Boys. FT: Oh, I remember the Goodwill Club. BH: And my father was a City Coucilman from ‘96-’96 in Hartford and they were you know on Central Row and downtown. They were very successful and they knew everybody. FT: That’s it, they were in just about where the Travelers entry is BH: Ya, they were in that building the Travelers bought their building. FT: Oh, I see BH: And built the Travelers and that’s when they moved up to Homestead Avenue I think it was. FT: And by that time your brother must have been in the business. BH: Well maybe not quite, but right after that he was in the business and until he retired then he sold the business. The son wasn’t interested to carry it on FT: Three generations had already carried it on. BH: And at that point he said it was going to be too much of a thing with the unions. My Uncle Ben was one of the open shops FT: They always had an open shop. BH: They always had an open shop. By the time my brother came along they had plenty of ______ FT: Well in the later day they didn’t do as much in the heating, did they? BH: No, they did not in the plumbing. FT: In the plumbing and in the early days you would have, they were heating when they had the hot air BH: I guess it was more or less it was odd that I remember the fact that the back of the place FT: Making things? BH: Because he enjoyed it. FT: Well they probably made the pipes back there and all that. VH: Of course I wasn’t interested and he was familiar with it. FT: Although you said you worked there for a little bit. BH: Well this was long after my grandfather was dead and buried and then there was no more tinsmith it was plumbing and heating. FT: That’s right. BH: By the time I got there. FT: Now, about the wedding dress. It’s in good condition. BH: Yes, it’s in very good condition. Otherwise I would have FT: Did anybody else every wear it? Did you happen to wear it when you were married? BH: No. I didn’t wear white when I got married and I don’t know, as far as I know unless one of her sisters might have that I didn’t know, but as far as I know I don’t think anyone else ever wore it. FT: Well where were you married Veris? BH: I was married at the Hotel Bond. FT: But you didn’t wear a white dress. BH: No. I was married at noon time and I wore a gray outfit with a gray hat with a feather. FT: And Jules, was he born in New Haven BH: His family came from New Haven and after his father died and he died quite young he came with his mother to Hartford took all her family. FT: Now who were the family? BH: His grandmother was Judith ______ his mother’s sister and they all lived in Hartford. And that’s an old Jewish family from Hartford. FT: So his mother came with – there was another boy BH: Yes, Phil. And she came to Hartford when her husband died and she was a school teacher also. FT: And so she, that’s how you met Jules? BH: Ya. FT: And that was the year 19 BH: I was married in ’23 but I met him after the War because he was in the service and he was overseas during the World War FT: 1918. BH: After the war, 1923, NOT UNDERSTANDABLE FT: Wwell, what street did you live on? BH: When I first came back I lived on Sharon Street FT: Sharon Street. Were the children born there on Sharon Street? BH: Jean was born. My oldest was born in New York. ____ was born while I was on Sharon Street and then I moved FT: ____ real name is Matt BH: His name if Arthur. FT: Arthur. After his grandfather? BH: After his grandfather on the other side. FT: Ya. BH: And after there I moved to Bretton Road and from Bretton Road to Ardmore Road. And I always lived in West Hartford. And Sue when I lived on Bretton Road. FT: And Sue was in Girl Scouting? BH: For 20 years she was in Girl Scouting and she was director of several of the councils and she just resigned because she ________. But she was in scouting for many years before she was a professional Girl Scout but she went to Sargent College and she was a phys ed major. But she didn’t like teaching so she FT: Well she was a very successful Girl Scout. BH: She was FT: Tell us a little bit about Jean? BH: Jean is a ______. She went to college for one year when she graduated from high school, the University of Connecticut. We wanted to prolong it but she was anxious to get started ____. So she ____ at Hartford Hospital and she’s at Hartford Hospital today. After she was married, she worked at the Hartford Hospital until the first child was born. FT: And she married – BH: ____ Hershfeld. I don’t know where he is now.________ After her first child was born, or course, then she ______ she has four children. After the two girls were born she went back to nursing part time. Afterwards full-time supervisor at Mt. Sinai here in Hartford. FT: She has ? BH: ______ FT: What is his right name? BH: His name is Sanford. FT: Sanford. BH: So we have two ___ in the family because both the _____ FT: And your ____ was a BH: He went to the University of Connecticut when he finished but while he was in the service he was down in Kentucky and he was in then he graduated from the University of Connecticut. He went to work and Quite a few years and while he was working he went to school nights and got his masters. And then he gave up his job. He got a teaching fellowship at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst and he went there, commuted for two years and after he was teaching there so you know he was a full professor. And he was teaching at the University of Connecticut. FT: And what did he teach? BH: Finance and investments. He also teaches one night a week at the Graduate School there. And he is going to teach, did you see the article in the paper? FT: No. BH: You didn’t? FT: No. BH: A big article in the paper two weeks ago Sunday. NOT UNDERSTABLE FT: And he does quite a bit of speaking. BH: Oh yes. And he does a lot of writing. FT: OK. And now we talked about all your children and what they are doing and Sue is coming in and have I left anything out that you would like to tell? Well I would like to know more about because it has been very, very interesting. BH: I talked about my grandfather in the Civil War, my mother’s FT: No, you didn’t say too much about the war. BH: My grandfather was in Kansas during the Civil War at Fort Levenworth and after that is when he came to Hartford FT: Both your grandfathers lived to very old, wouldn’t you say? BH: Well, my grandfather Stern lived to be 90 something. He lived to be older than my grandfather Lyon. Although grandpa Lyon was quite old when he died. But both my grandmothers died when I was a little girl. I hardly have any recollection of them. FT: What do you like to do now, what do you do? BH: Well, at the present time I don’t do very much but I, my husband died when he was very young. FT: How long has Jule been dead? BH: 30 years. FT: Oh my BH: So I was 45 when he died and I went to work. My children, Jean was working at the Hartford Hospital ___________ and I worked at __________ not understandable With all the children and grandchildren I keep busy FT: And what are your special interests? You moved back in this house after your father died. BH: Yes. FT: After your father died and what are your special interests? I mean you have housekeeping to do, of course. BH: I like to cook. FT: You like to cook? BH: I love to cook and I am always cooking and having company. FT: What’s your specialty? BH: Oh, I don’t think I have any. FT: Any recipes BH: Oh yes. I have a lot of my mother’s recipes, you know for cakes and things like that and so all the birthdays I just had a ________ he was 12 years older and I made him one of the family cakes for his birthday. _________________________ NOT UNDERSTANDABLE Gee I can hardly wait until next year for my birthday, I’d like one of these. NOT UNDERSTANDABLE And the grandchildren, the three girls are all married. But they all live in the area. FT: They do? Well do you have great-grandchildren? BH: I have two great-grandchildren. FT: Oh, you never said a word about them. BH: Well I thought you were interested in my grandparents. I have two FT: How are they now? BH: One is 4 and the other is 3. FT: Oh that’s lovely. BH: It is marvelous really because they come often. NOT UNDERSTANDABLE NOT UNDERSTANDABLE BH: And then she has a son who just started the second year of college. He goes to college in West Virginia. NOT UNDERSTANDABLE And as I said they are all around FT: Ya. BH: In Bud’s family there are four. Four children. Joe the oldest is married. FT: Joe is married? BH: Yes. And Larry and Ned are both at college. Ned just started this year. He is the younger one. He goes to the University of South Carolina and ___ goes to school in ______. And Andy he was just FT: So 8 grandchildren and 2 great-grandchildren. NOT UNDERSTANDABLE FT: Well Bernice it seems like you have had a happy life. BH: I FT: In spite of the fact that you were a widow very young BH: Yes. I still FT: Well now as you look back, life is very different in Hartford, than it was. What do you notice most as some of the differences? BH: Well, I don’t think that we were in the hurry that they are today. Maybe the they had more time for each other, for some more time to Don’t you think so? FT: Right, right. BH: And of course there weren’t all the country clubs and all the although there was Tauro Club that my father belonged to and we used to go there to parties and FT: The Tauro Club? BH: Ya. FT: Which was located on Prospect Street first BH: Yes, first and then Farmington Avenue. When we were children. FT: Well, I can remember the Prospect Street building when we use to go there for parties BH: And then I can remember the one down here, it was on the corner Whiting Lane and Farmington Avenue. NOT UNDERSTANDABLE FT: Oh yes. BH: And then that turned into ______ FT: And do you get out to go to services? BH: No, I don’t go to services. I don’t belong to the temple. But my children do Sunday school and the others all went. FT: Ya. BH: __________________ I don’t know how often they go now but FT: Anything else you’d like to ad before we say the afternoon is complete BH: I can’t think of anything. FT: Well I thank you very much for giving us this interview. I am sure that it will be very valuable and I thank Sandy for recording it and I want to say again that this is recording we have made at ____ for the Jewish Historical Society of Hartford and the date is September 29, 1976 and the interview was with Mrs. Jule Herrmann, Bernice. A lot of people say Bernice and we hope that you will go on and enjoy all your children and your grandchildren. BH: Well thank you. And I am sure I will because I really feel very fortunate. FT: And I am Franchon Title ending this interview.